Laseraxe

May 12, 2018

Yes, i use that information to upgrade my GRBL Firmware to 1.1e and works fine, but yo need to config some things as the internal pullups if you want to use hard limits in the axis, editing the files and compiling the code with arduino:

#define LIMIT_MASK ((1<<X_LIMIT_BIT)|(1<<Y_LIMIT_BIT)|(1<<Z_LIMIT_BIT)) // All limit bits

If you want to activate the heigh map in A5, you need to change this:

#define PROBE_MASK (1<<PROBE_BIT)

Later I change the speeds and the axis to work with my machine. I use to Control Software Candle v1.1.7 (For GRBL 1.1). I change all the things via Software. Now my config is this:

[CTRL+X] < Grbl 1.1e ['$' for help]

$$ < $0=10

$1=255

$2=0

$3=4

$4=0

$5=0

$6=0

$10=3

$11=0.010

$12=0.002

$13=0

$20=0

$21=1

$22=1

$23=1

$24=25.000

$25=500.000

$26=250

$27=2.000

$30=255

$31=1

$32=0

$100=400.000

$101=400.000

$102=400.000

$110=1500.000

$111=1500.000

$112=1500.000

$120=1000.000

$121=1000.000

$122=1000.000

$130=200.000

$131=200.000

$132=200.000

I did this for my personal use, but is very useful to know the Arduino Pins of this PCB

Rodrigo Savage

May 12, 2018

Thank you for sharing your grbl configuration, and the schematic image. I manage to make the motors work the new cpu_map, but it seams that my laser is not turning on. I believe that the laser pwm is connected to the analog pin11 right?

Rodrigo Savage

May 12, 2018

I am still unable to turn on the laser, everything else works fine, your configuration file is good!

This is my cpu_map, how is yours? what pin do you have the spindle?

cpu_map.h - CPU and pin mapping configuration file

Part of Grbl

#ifndef cpu_map_h

#define cpu_map_h

#ifdef CPU_MAP_ATMEGA328P // (Arduino Uno) Officially supported by Grbl.

// Define serial port pins and interrupt vectors.

#define SERIAL_RX USART_RX_vect

#define SERIAL_UDRE USART_UDRE_vect

// Define step pulse output pins. NOTE: All step bit pins must be on the same port.

#define STEP_DDR DDRD

#define STEP_PORT PORTD

#define X_STEP_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 2

#define Y_STEP_BIT 5 // Uno Digital Pin 3

#define Z_STEP_BIT 7 // Uno Digital Pin 4

#define STEP_MASK ((1<<X_STEP_BIT)|(1<<Y_STEP_BIT)|(1<<Z_STEP_BIT)) // All step bits

// Define step direction output pins. NOTE: All direction pins must be on the same port.

#define DIRECTION_DDR DDRD

#define DIRECTION_PORT PORTD

#define X_DIRECTION_BIT 2 // Uno Digital Pin 5

#define Y_DIRECTION_BIT 4 // Uno Digital Pin 6

#define Z_DIRECTION_BIT 6 // Uno Digital Pin 7

#define DIRECTION_MASK ((1<<X_DIRECTION_BIT)|(1<<Y_DIRECTION_BIT)|(1<<Z_DIRECTION_BIT)) // All direction bits

// Define stepper driver enable/disable output pin.

#define STEPPERS_DISABLE_DDR DDRB

#define STEPPERS_DISABLE_PORT PORTB

#define STEPPERS_DISABLE_BIT 8 // Uno Digital Pin 8

#define STEPPERS_DISABLE_MASK (1<<STEPPERS_DISABLE_BIT)

// Define homing/hard limit switch input pins and limit interrupt vectors.

// NOTE: All limit bit pins must be on the same port, but not on a port with other input pins (CONTROL).

#define LIMIT_DDR DDRB

#define LIMIT_PIN PINB

#define LIMIT_PORT PORTB

#define X_LIMIT_BIT 1 // Uno Digital Pin 9

#define Y_LIMIT_BIT 2 // Uno Digital Pin 10

#ifdef VARIABLE_SPINDLE // Z Limit pin and spindle enabled swapped to access hardware PWM on Pin 11.

#define Z_LIMIT_BIT 4 // Uno Digital Pin 12

#define Z_LIMIT_BIT 4 // Uno Digital Pin 11

#define LIMIT_MASK ((0<<X_LIMIT_BIT)|(0<<Y_LIMIT_BIT)|(0<<Z_LIMIT_BIT)) // All limit bits

#define LIMIT_INT PCIE0 // Pin change interrupt enable pin

#define LIMIT_INT_vect PCINT0_vect

#define LIMIT_PCMSK PCMSK0 // Pin change interrupt register

// Define spindle enable and spindle direction output pins.

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_DDR DDRB

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_PORT PORTB

// Z Limit pin and spindle PWM/enable pin swapped to access hardware PWM on Pin 11.

#ifdef VARIABLE_SPINDLE

#ifdef USE_SPINDLE_DIR_AS_ENABLE_PIN

// If enabled, spindle direction pin now used as spindle enable, while PWM remains on D11.

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 13 (NOTE: D13 can't be pulled-high input due to LED.)

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 11

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 12

#ifndef USE_SPINDLE_DIR_AS_ENABLE_PIN

#define SPINDLE_DIRECTION_DDR DDRB

#define SPINDLE_DIRECTION_PORT PORTB

#define SPINDLE_DIRECTION_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 13 (NOTE: D13 can't be pulled-high input due to LED.)

// Define flood and mist coolant enable output pins.

#define COOLANT_FLOOD_DDR DDRC

#define COOLANT_FLOOD_PORT PORTC

#define COOLANT_FLOOD_BIT 3 // Uno Analog Pin 3

#define COOLANT_MIST_DDR DDRC

#define COOLANT_MIST_PORT PORTC

#define COOLANT_MIST_BIT 4 // Uno Analog Pin 4

// Define user-control controls (cycle start, reset, feed hold) input pins.

// NOTE: All CONTROLs pins must be on the same port and not on a port with other input pins (limits).

#define CONTROL_DDR DDRC

#define CONTROL_PIN PINC

#define CONTROL_PORT PORTC

#define CONTROL_RESET_BIT 0 // Uno Analog Pin 0

#define CONTROL_FEED_HOLD_BIT 1 // Uno Analog Pin 1

#define CONTROL_CYCLE_START_BIT 2 // Uno Analog Pin 2

#define CONTROL_SAFETY_DOOR_BIT 1 // Uno Analog Pin 1 NOTE: Safety door is shared with feed hold. Enabled by config define.

#define CONTROL_INT PCIE1 // Pin change interrupt enable pin

#define CONTROL_INT_vect PCINT1_vect

#define CONTROL_PCMSK PCMSK1 // Pin change interrupt register

#define CONTROL_MASK ((1<<CONTROL_RESET_BIT)|(1<<CONTROL_FEED_HOLD_BIT)|(1<<CONTROL_CYCLE_START_BIT)|(1<<CONTROL_SAFETY_DOOR_BIT))

#define CONTROL_INVERT_MASK CONTROL_MASK // May be re-defined to only invert certain control pins.

// Define probe switch input pin.

#define PROBE_DDR DDRC

#define PROBE_PIN PINC

#define PROBE_PORT PORTC

#define PROBE_BIT 5 // Uno Analog Pin 5

#define PROBE_MASK (0<<PROBE_BIT)

// Variable spindle configuration below. Do not change unless you know what you are doing.

// NOTE: Only used when variable spindle is enabled.

#define SPINDLE_PWM_MAX_VALUE 255 // Don't change. 328p fast PWM mode fixes top value as 255.

#ifndef SPINDLE_PWM_MIN_VALUE

#define SPINDLE_PWM_MIN_VALUE 1 // Must be greater than zero.

#define SPINDLE_PWM_OFF_VALUE 0

#define SPINDLE_PWM_RANGE (SPINDLE_PWM_MAX_VALUE-SPINDLE_PWM_MIN_VALUE)

#define SPINDLE_TCCRA_REGISTER TCCR2A

#define SPINDLE_TCCRB_REGISTER TCCR2B

#define SPINDLE_OCR_REGISTER OCR2A

#define SPINDLE_COMB_BIT COM2A1

// Prescaled, 8-bit Fast PWM mode.

#define SPINDLE_TCCRA_INIT_MASK ((1<<WGM20) | (1<<WGM21)) // Configures fast PWM mode.

// #define SPINDLE_TCCRB_INIT_MASK (1<<CS20) // Disable prescaler -> 62.5kHz

// #define SPINDLE_TCCRB_INIT_MASK (1<<CS21) // 1/8 prescaler -> 7.8kHz (Used in v0.9)

// #define SPINDLE_TCCRB_INIT_MASK ((1<<CS21) | (1<<CS20)) // 1/32 prescaler -> 1.96kHz

#define SPINDLE_TCCRB_INIT_MASK (1<<CS22) // 1/64 prescaler -> 0.98kHz (J-tech laser)

// NOTE: On the 328p, these must be the same as the SPINDLE_ENABLE settings.

#define SPINDLE_PWM_DDR DDRB

#define SPINDLE_PWM_PORT PORTB

#define SPINDLE_PWM_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 11

#ifdef CPU_MAP_CUSTOM_PROC

// For a custom pin map or different processor, copy and edit one of the available cpu

// map files and modify it to your needs. Make sure the defined name is also changed in

// the config.h file.

May 15, 2018

Hello, I connect my spindle in the Laser & Motor Connector (Mandrino in my photo). I didn't check the pin because for me works. Sorry, but I Don't know how works the pwm output and the laser, because i don't have one.

This is my "cpu_map" for GRBL 1.1e:

I only modified the pins for the axis, enable the A5 for the height map, and i activated the internal pullups for the Hard Limit. Later i changed the direcction of the axis directly with Candle and adjust all the speeds and accelerations as the original laseraxe GRBL 0.8. My Spindle works perfectly when i send a M03 Command, and stops with M05.

Sorry if i can't help more, but i'm not an expert, i'm learnig how works GRBL since 2 months ago...

cpu_map.h - CPU and pin mapping configuration file

Part of Grbl

Grbl is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify

it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by

the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or

(at your option) any later version.

Grbl is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,

but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of

MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the

GNU General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License

along with Grbl. If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.

/* The cpu_map.h files serve as a central pin mapping selection file for different

processor types or alternative pin layouts. This version of Grbl officially supports

only the Arduino Mega328p.

This specific branch is ment to use LaserAxe controler with arduino nano v3

#avrdude -b 57600 -B 16 -P /dev/ttyUSB0 -carduino -p m328p -Uflash:w:grbl.hex

blower is a must small pc fan does great and conects directly to the board

#ifndef cpu_map_h

#define cpu_map_h

#ifdef CPU_MAP_ATMEGA328P // (Arduino Uno) Officially supported by Grbl.

// Define serial port pins and interrupt vectors.

#define SERIAL_RX USART_RX_vect

#define SERIAL_UDRE USART_UDRE_vect

// Define step pulse output pins. NOTE: All step bit pins must be on the same port.

#define STEP_DDR DDRD

#define STEP_PORT PORTD

#define X_STEP_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 2

#define Y_STEP_BIT 5 // Uno Digital Pin 3

#define Z_STEP_BIT 7 // Uno Digital Pin 4

#define STEP_MASK ((1<<X_STEP_BIT)|(1<<Y_STEP_BIT)|(1<<Z_STEP_BIT)) // All step bits

// Define step direction output pins. NOTE: All direction pins must be on the same port.

#define DIRECTION_DDR DDRD

#define DIRECTION_PORT PORTD

#define X_DIRECTION_BIT 2 // Uno Digital Pin 5

#define Y_DIRECTION_BIT 4 // Uno Digital Pin 6

#define Z_DIRECTION_BIT 6 // Uno Digital Pin 7

#define DIRECTION_MASK ((1<<X_DIRECTION_BIT)|(1<<Y_DIRECTION_BIT)|(1<<Z_DIRECTION_BIT)) // All direction bits

// Define stepper driver enable/disable output pin.

#define STEPPERS_DISABLE_DDR DDRB

#define STEPPERS_DISABLE_PORT PORTB

#define STEPPERS_DISABLE_BIT 8 // Uno Digital Pin 8

#define STEPPERS_DISABLE_MASK (1<<STEPPERS_DISABLE_BIT)

// Define homing/hard limit switch input pins and limit interrupt vectors.

// NOTE: All limit bit pins must be on the same port, but not on a port with other input pins (CONTROL).

#define LIMIT_DDR DDRB

#define LIMIT_PIN PINB

#define LIMIT_PORT PORTB

#define X_LIMIT_BIT 1 // Uno Digital Pin 9

#define Y_LIMIT_BIT 2 // Uno Digital Pin 10

#ifdef VARIABLE_SPINDLE // Z Limit pin and spindle enabled swapped to access hardware PWM on Pin 11.

#define Z_LIMIT_BIT 4 // Uno Digital Pin 12

#define Z_LIMIT_BIT 4 // Uno Digital Pin 11

#define LIMIT_MASK ((1<<X_LIMIT_BIT)|(1<<Y_LIMIT_BIT)|(1<<Z_LIMIT_BIT)) // All limit bits

#define LIMIT_INT PCIE0 // Pin change interrupt enable pin

#define LIMIT_INT_vect PCINT0_vect

#define LIMIT_PCMSK PCMSK0 // Pin change interrupt register

// Define spindle enable and spindle direction output pins.

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_DDR DDRB

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_PORT PORTB

// Z Limit pin and spindle PWM/enable pin swapped to access hardware PWM on Pin 11.

#ifdef VARIABLE_SPINDLE

#ifdef USE_SPINDLE_DIR_AS_ENABLE_PIN

// If enabled, spindle direction pin now used as spindle enable, while PWM remains on D11.

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 13 (NOTE: D13 can't be pulled-high input due to LED.)

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 11

#define SPINDLE_ENABLE_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 12

#ifndef USE_SPINDLE_DIR_AS_ENABLE_PIN

#define SPINDLE_DIRECTION_DDR DDRB

#define SPINDLE_DIRECTION_PORT PORTB

#define SPINDLE_DIRECTION_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 13 (NOTE: D13 can't be pulled-high input due to LED.)

// Define flood and mist coolant enable output pins.

#define COOLANT_FLOOD_DDR DDRC

#define COOLANT_FLOOD_PORT PORTC

#define COOLANT_FLOOD_BIT 3 // Uno Analog Pin 3

#define COOLANT_MIST_DDR DDRC

#define COOLANT_MIST_PORT PORTC

#define COOLANT_MIST_BIT 4 // Uno Analog Pin 4

// Define user-control controls (cycle start, reset, feed hold) input pins.

// NOTE: All CONTROLs pins must be on the same port and not on a port with other input pins (limits).

#define CONTROL_DDR DDRC

#define CONTROL_PIN PINC

#define CONTROL_PORT PORTC

#define CONTROL_RESET_BIT 0 // Uno Analog Pin 0

#define CONTROL_FEED_HOLD_BIT 1 // Uno Analog Pin 1

#define CONTROL_CYCLE_START_BIT 2 // Uno Analog Pin 2

#define CONTROL_SAFETY_DOOR_BIT 1 // Uno Analog Pin 1 NOTE: Safety door is shared with feed hold. Enabled by config define.

#define CONTROL_INT PCIE1 // Pin change interrupt enable pin

#define CONTROL_INT_vect PCINT1_vect

#define CONTROL_PCMSK PCMSK1 // Pin change interrupt register

#define CONTROL_MASK ((1<<CONTROL_RESET_BIT)|(1<<CONTROL_FEED_HOLD_BIT)|(1<<CONTROL_CYCLE_START_BIT)|(1<<CONTROL_SAFETY_DOOR_BIT))

#define CONTROL_INVERT_MASK CONTROL_MASK // May be re-defined to only invert certain control pins.

// Define probe switch input pin.

#define PROBE_DDR DDRC

#define PROBE_PIN PINC

#define PROBE_PORT PORTC

#define PROBE_BIT 5 // Uno Analog Pin 5

#define PROBE_MASK (1<<PROBE_BIT)

// Variable spindle configuration below. Do not change unless you know what you are doing.

// NOTE: Only used when variable spindle is enabled.

#define SPINDLE_PWM_MAX_VALUE 255 // Don't change. 328p fast PWM mode fixes top value as 255.

#ifndef SPINDLE_PWM_MIN_VALUE

#define SPINDLE_PWM_MIN_VALUE 1 // Must be greater than zero.

#define SPINDLE_PWM_OFF_VALUE 0

#define SPINDLE_PWM_RANGE (SPINDLE_PWM_MAX_VALUE-SPINDLE_PWM_MIN_VALUE)

#define SPINDLE_TCCRA_REGISTER TCCR2A

#define SPINDLE_TCCRB_REGISTER TCCR2B

#define SPINDLE_OCR_REGISTER OCR2A

#define SPINDLE_COMB_BIT COM2A1

// Prescaled, 8-bit Fast PWM mode.

#define SPINDLE_TCCRA_INIT_MASK ((1<<WGM20) | (1<<WGM21)) // Configures fast PWM mode.

// #define SPINDLE_TCCRB_INIT_MASK (1<<CS20) // Disable prescaler -> 62.5kHz

// #define SPINDLE_TCCRB_INIT_MASK (1<<CS21) // 1/8 prescaler -> 7.8kHz (Used in v0.9)

// #define SPINDLE_TCCRB_INIT_MASK ((1<<CS21) | (1<<CS20)) // 1/32 prescaler -> 1.96kHz

#define SPINDLE_TCCRB_INIT_MASK (1<<CS22) // 1/64 prescaler -> 0.98kHz (J-tech laser)

// NOTE: On the 328p, these must be the same as the SPINDLE_ENABLE settings.

#define SPINDLE_PWM_DDR DDRB

#define SPINDLE_PWM_PORT PORTB

#define SPINDLE_PWM_BIT 3 // Uno Digital Pin 11

#ifdef CPU_MAP_CUSTOM_PROC

// For a custom pin map or different processor, copy and edit one of the available cpu

// map files and modify it to your needs. Make sure the defined name is also changed in

// the config.h file.

on7kz

Jul 12, 2018

Hello,

I'm new on these GRBL situation and also to "Arduino programming" can someone send me a working hex file for the nano board used into the laseraxe engraving machine please.

tanks , and greetings

Luc

https://github.com/1wise/grbl-laseraxe-arduino-nanov3/blob/master/grbl/cpu_map/cpu_map_atmega328p.h

Jul 12, 2018

Hum, i don't have the hex file to program the arduino, it's better if you download the last grbl proyect, modify your custom settings for laxeraxe, and compile with arduino ide to program the nano board.

Start with this version, it's has the pin maps modified for laxeraxe.

Rodrigo SavageMay 11 I found that someone has change the pinmap of the GRBL to give support for the laseraxe driver,Has anyone successfully done this?

on7kz

Jul 17, 2018

Hello,

Thanks for info yet a nano programmed but not tested, Time ??? do you have any idee what stepper motors are there used by a laseraxe some times after a while the X as make a not normal noise after that the X is moved a few mm to the wrong direction and the PCB will be total loss.

Can it be the current limit from the stepper drivers ????

thanks into advance

https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/EEPROMClear

Jul 17, 2018

Maybe a Problem with the driver, try to regulate with the potenciometer (but i don't know how to calibrate..xD... i never need to do that), check the belt, its another typical problem if you lose steps, and the last option before change the motor is to reduce the acceleration and feed from the grbl config. You can send commands to change the settings via candle software for example.

I learned a lot of things doing trys and change all settings. If you dont like the results, you can reflash the grbl to nano board, but remember to erase the eprom too.

Jan 24, 2019

New here. Just got my Laser Etcher and have been doing a lot of research as I learn to use it.

I purchased mine through Amazon (1000mw Laser CNC Engraving Machine, DIY 6550 CNC Machine Precison 0.1mm with USB Interface).

A few things I've learned today and over the last few days...

The rig is not Precise to 0.1mm. It comes with GT2 pulleys with 17 teeth. In researching this, I found a webpage that goes into how to determine your actual precision based on steps per mm. Long story short, I've ordered a set of GT2 pulleys with 20 teeth. Without changing anything else, that will give exactly 0.1mm accuracy. This is based on the stepper motors requiring 200 steps to turn a full 360°, determining that the motors are set with a micro-stepping factor of 2, the pitch of the pulleys being 2mm (that's what the GT2 means), and the number of teeth on the pulley. (200*2)/(2*17) which comes to 0.118 (rounded up). You can read about it in detail here: https://www.norwegiancreations.com/2015/07/tutorial-calibrating-stepper-motor-machines-with-belts-and-pulleys/

Next, early in this thread is a picture of the Mana SE board that comes with our kits and it is notated according to how elartista50 is set up to use it after having flashed it. I went to the documentation that came with my kit and did a screenshot showing what they set it as. It's nearly the same, but may provide a little more detail - I hope this is helpful.

You'll note that for lasers with TTL (mostly those over 2.5Watts) need to have the TTL lead connected to work, and those same higher powered lasers must be connected to a different port as shown at the top of the image.

Something else I have learned. Using CNCC if you have the TTL box checked, and you're using the lower powered lasers, you'll be turning your laser on full power even in WS (weak) mode.

The previous posts have been helpful. I wanted to share a little back and hopefully help others, too.

robonav

Jan 24, 2019

I just assembled a 15W Laser engraver (hope cutter too) and my laser do not work with the wiring provided in the manual but only if I connect directly the laser power plug to the 7 W plug, in this case it goes at high power (I suppose because I shut down immediatly). Any suggestion?

Jan 24, 2019Edited: Jan 24, 2019

@robonav

Those high powered lasers need to be set up differently from the lower powered ones, like my 1000mW. It should have the power connector, the TTL (single wire), and the laser control cable. My 5W (which I'm waiting on) has the power and TTL wrapped together and terminated on one end in a three pin connector, the other end has a two pin connector and a female power connector. The other cable has three pin connectors on both ends. (EDIT) If your board is able to connect PWM, you'll connect that to the laser and the appropriate pins on the board. Otherwise you'll have to use the other connector to connect to power and TTL. PWM is the preferred. It allows your laser to use different power settings all during one run.

Also, there should be a white button on the top of your laser. That button is there to set it to low power mode.

Photos of your card and laser would help, so we could see the way it is connected. Needs to be close up and clear.

Oh, and another edit. Forgot, there is another difference when running 15W lasers. Those require a totally different power/control cable setup. I'd have to see a picture of what you have to be sure of how to connect it. Even the documentation that came with mine (includes for all lasers up to 15W) is very limited, but I can tell what they mean.

robonav

Jan 29, 2019

Did you have to modify any parameters in the software changing the pulley from 17 to 20 teeth?

Jan 24, 2019

Hi.

Thanks for your comments, maybe it can help another people. My Picture its from the little documentation about the instalation of my mill cnc and i write the arduino pins only in RED, i don't test this control board with a laser, but its very similar, and the important its how to upgrade to the last grbl, and configure the pins. For me works fine, but in the last months i disable the stoppers and the emergency button, because they cause me false pauses while the motors are in movement, probably the inputs are not isolated, or my conecction have ground problems, i don't know. Now i'm working within the security stoppers.

Jan 24, 2019

elartista50...

You could try running it to the furthest point you are comfortable with allowing it to travel in X and Y, and Y and notating those coordinates and set them as your machine's limits. That way it would never hit the end point and possibly cause damage, while your limiter switches are disconnected.

Did you have your limiters set up as NO (Normally Open) and did you have filter circuits in line with them to help cut down unwanted signals passing through?

Jan 25, 2019

Yes, i was thinking to configure the software limits, but i don't try yet. The problem its the control board, they don't have pull ups, and i don't install nothing, only connect to arduino input, and that its the problem...

In a future i want to fix the problem with pull ups or configirng the software limits, but i don't use the cnc now, now i'm working with a new hobby, a 3d printer....